{"topic":{"id":11022,"title":"科幻选书有感：人品味差距好大","slug":"topic","userId":346,"categoryId":61,"createdAt":"2024-03-24 10:36:06.882009","bumpedAt":"2025-04-23 02:23:09.589782","views":774,"postsCount":11,"highestPostNumber":11,"likeCount":34,"closed":false,"pinned":false,"pinnedGlobally":false,"pinnedAt":null,"pinnedUntil":null,"isBanner":false,"excerpt":"有评论言“科幻迷的偏好差距之大超过地球到麦哲伦星团的距离”。起因是友人带我看了《沙丘 2》，我当时想的是宇宙人的想象怎么还迂腐到封建宗教场景的王子复仇。以前读过《三体》，觉得情节、科技感都极佳，但对女性、群像的描写不行。《北京折叠》烂到一无是处。再早就是凡尔纳的《海底两万里》等科技冒险剧，看的酣畅淋漓。于是找找近代国外科幻书，凡尔纳以后上百年的书总该有好的，但是发现现存的书风格迥异，评价分化严重，一评赞誉的佳作下一评便有痛批，才意识到科…","deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"isPrivate":false,"isMembersOnly":false,"category":{"id":61,"name":"读书分享","slug":"reading","color":"8C6238"},"author":{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/0d/cd/0dcdf69d213b6798002779ad4b729567cd4d889ee4a56c07a8c4454e8b563219.avif"},"realAuthor":{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/0d/cd/0dcdf69d213b6798002779ad4b729567cd4d889ee4a56c07a8c4454e8b563219.avif"},"tags":[]},"posts":[{"id":27686,"postNumber":1,"raw":"有评论言“科幻迷的偏好差距之大超过地球到麦哲伦星团的距离”。起因是友人带我看了《沙丘 2》，我当时想的是宇宙人的想象怎么还迂腐到封建宗教场景的王子复仇。以前读过《三体》，觉得情节、科技感都极佳，但对女性、群像的描写不行。《北京折叠》烂到一无是处。再早就是凡尔纳的《海底两万里》等科技冒险剧，看的酣畅淋漓。于是找找近代国外科幻书，凡尔纳以后上百年的书总该有好的，但是发现现存的书风格迥异，评价分化严重，一评赞誉的佳作下一评便有痛批，才意识到科幻皮下啥都可以写。花十分钟翻了翻《天渊》《海德里安》，就觉得我根本不可能喜欢这种书。最后拿了一本《失去一切的人》(the dispossessed) ，讽刺的是，这本书几乎不是科幻，完全是借科幻脱离现实束缚的政治小说。（有点后悔了，或许我应该换成《光明王》？）\n\n25/4/21补充：最后看了银河帝国系列，确实不错。\n\n25/4/26补充：多谢7L推荐。《信息全知者》比一些热门网文写的好，作者写那些互联网用语手到拈来，不愧是网络作家，这在传统作品不可能看到；对于古书引用想必也下了一番功夫；还用了三国演义的梗。不过缺点也向你说的很明显，比如情节节奏的重复，这是网文通病了。","cooked":"

有评论言“科幻迷的偏好差距之大超过地球到麦哲伦星团的距离”。起因是友人带我看了《沙丘 2》，我当时想的是宇宙人的想象怎么还迂腐到封建宗教场景的王子复仇。以前读过《三体》，觉得情节、科技感都极佳，但对女性、群像的描写不行。《北京折叠》烂到一无是处。再早就是凡尔纳的《海底两万里》等科技冒险剧，看的酣畅淋漓。于是找找近代国外科幻书，凡尔纳以后上百年的书总该有好的，但是发现现存的书风格迥异，评价分化严重，一评赞誉的佳作下一评便有痛批，才意识到科幻皮下啥都可以写。花十分钟翻了翻《天渊》《海德里安》，就觉得我根本不可能喜欢这种书。最后拿了一本《失去一切的人》(the dispossessed) ，讽刺的是，这本书几乎不是科幻，完全是借科幻脱离现实束缚的政治小说。（有点后悔了，或许我应该换成《光明王》？）

25/4/21补充：最后看了银河帝国系列，确实不错。

25/4/26补充：多谢7L推荐。《信息全知者》比一些热门网文写的好，作者写那些互联网用语手到拈来，不愧是网络作家，这在传统作品不可能看到；对于古书引用想必也下了一番功夫；还用了三国演义的梗。不过缺点也向你说的很明显，比如情节节奏的重复，这是网文通病了。

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-24 10:36:06.968936","updatedAt":"2025-04-26 13:12:57.625593","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":5,"wordCount":460,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":5,"users":[{"id":1047,"username":"anonymous_coward_old","name":"Anonymous Coward Old"},{"id":2913,"username":"kobayashi","name":null},{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":3273,"username":"anon18815924","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":4,"publicVersion":4,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/0d/cd/0dcdf69d213b6798002779ad4b729567cd4d889ee4a56c07a8c4454e8b563219.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":27705,"postNumber":2,"raw":"《银河帝国》比较符合我心目中的星际时代","cooked":"

《银河帝国》比较符合我心目中的星际时代

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-24 15:13:59.183755","updatedAt":"2024-03-24 15:13:59.183755","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":6,"wordCount":19,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":6,"users":[{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null},{"id":426,"username":"Komeiji_Koishi","name":"Komeiji_Koishi"},{"id":1047,"username":"anonymous_coward_old","name":"Anonymous Coward Old"},{"id":2107,"username":"jackieo1020301","name":"Jackby"},{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":20,"username":"QuantumAssHitter","name":"量子打屁手","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/11/bb/11bb34e51df1e31c5ac30d9942688dc13c74a41db4ea7e5747250d132dbdd1a2.avif","admin":false,"moderator":true,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":27723,"postNumber":3,"raw":"与其说《沙丘》是科幻，还不如说它是一部奇幻神棍小说。\n据说主要是因为写作年代较早，所以虽然软但是被大吹特吹（本人并不赞同，因为这书作者和阿西莫夫同岁😅）","cooked":"

与其说《沙丘》是科幻，还不如说它是一部奇幻神棍小说。
\n据说主要是因为写作年代较早，所以虽然软但是被大吹特吹（本人并不赞同，因为这书作者和阿西莫夫同岁😅）

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-25 06:25:27.904263","updatedAt":"2024-03-25 06:25:27.904263","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":1,"likeCount":4,"wordCount":74,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":4,"users":[{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null},{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":4034,"username":"不赢也是一种善良","name":"不赢也是一种善良"},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":2913,"username":"kobayashi","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/fd/59/fd59ac9de7dab440850c6546d4b39f33cb8d00d489efe7d445517dc258b08e68.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":27734,"postNumber":4,"raw":"完全赞同 lz 对三体的看法","cooked":"

完全赞同 lz 对三体的看法

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-25 08:01:21.314621","updatedAt":"2024-03-25 08:01:21.314621","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":2,"wordCount":11,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":2,"users":[{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":2728,"username":"zfli","name":"范卓立","avatarUrl":null,"admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":27742,"postNumber":5,"raw":"《失去一切的人》：读 3 章。烂，这本架空的政治小说不仅没有穿透政治核心的能力，甚至对现实仅有的一点解释力都失掉了，沦为作者对意识形态的幻想，文笔再好也没用。\n或许还是看看上面“量子”说的银河帝国吧，最经典的了。","cooked":"

《失去一切的人》：读 3 章。烂，这本架空的政治小说不仅没有穿透政治核心的能力，甚至对现实仅有的一点解释力都失掉了，沦为作者对意识形态的幻想，文笔再好也没用。
\n或许还是看看上面“量子”说的银河帝国吧，最经典的了。

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-25 08:19:16.980783","updatedAt":"2024-03-25 08:21:43.716556","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":2,"wordCount":102,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":2,"users":[{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/0d/cd/0dcdf69d213b6798002779ad4b729567cd4d889ee4a56c07a8c4454e8b563219.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":27779,"postNumber":6,"raw":"对我来说，狭义的科幻小说就是一种更不严谨、更大胆也更文学化的思维实验，《三体》和《银河帝国》皆属此类。反过来说，像双生子佯谬这样的精彩设计，对于不够了解物理学的人而言，颇有超短篇科幻小说的风味。\n\n就好比同样讲星际时代，也都讲了很多星际时代的人物故事，《银河帝国》是借人物来展现时代，而《星球大战》是借时代来展现人物。这大概就是两种截然不同的科幻创作风格，而前者才是狭义的科幻，后者就是楼主所说的“科幻皮下什么都能写”。","cooked":"

对我来说，狭义的科幻小说就是一种更不严谨、更大胆也更文学化的思维实验，《三体》和《银河帝国》皆属此类。反过来说，像双生子佯谬这样的精彩设计，对于不够了解物理学的人而言，颇有超短篇科幻小说的风味。

就好比同样讲星际时代，也都讲了很多星际时代的人物故事，《银河帝国》是借人物来展现时代，而《星球大战》是借时代来展现人物。这大概就是两种截然不同的科幻创作风格，而前者才是狭义的科幻，后者就是楼主所说的“科幻皮下什么都能写”。

\n","createdAt":"2024-03-25 12:51:59.915171","updatedAt":"2024-03-25 12:51:59.915171","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":6,"wordCount":205,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":6,"users":[{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null},{"id":1047,"username":"anonymous_coward_old","name":"Anonymous Coward Old"},{"id":2913,"username":"kobayashi","name":null},{"id":3235,"username":"东风始未已","name":null},{"id":3273,"username":"anon18815924","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":1381,"username":"greyishsong","name":"greyishsong","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/da/bc/dabc731b0311f59850625bbeb55ed969fcfac0430c5ef0f68441e5466b7aa496.avif","admin":false,"moderator":true,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":49580,"postNumber":7,"raw":"其实网络小说也有不少可取之处的！虽然很多科幻是套皮修真那种但比较硬的也不是没有（主要关注设定什么的话）《信息全知者》然后以及同作者的各类作品，交代了比较完善的世界观，个体力量，文明纬度都有（虽然确实会有网文战力膨胀然后制造爽点那种通病）或者我真没想当救世主，我一个二级文明有二向箔很合理（草这种名字打出来还有点尴尬）但如果是对“科幻感，设计感”有兴趣的话是值得一看的，毕竟我也对现实人类社会翻版甚至是封建宗教场景不感兴趣……","cooked":"

其实网络小说也有不少可取之处的！虽然很多科幻是套皮修真那种但比较硬的也不是没有（主要关注设定什么的话）《信息全知者》然后以及同作者的各类作品，交代了比较完善的世界观，个体力量，文明纬度都有（虽然确实会有网文战力膨胀然后制造爽点那种通病）或者我真没想当救世主，我一个二级文明有二向箔很合理（草这种名字打出来还有点尴尬）但如果是对“科幻感，设计感”有兴趣的话是值得一看的，毕竟我也对现实人类社会翻版甚至是封建宗教场景不感兴趣……

\n","createdAt":"2025-04-21 04:02:41.506267","updatedAt":"2025-04-21 04:02:41.506267","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":2,"wordCount":210,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":2,"users":[{"id":346,"username":"hoist","name":null},{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":7528,"username":"夜阑观星海","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/b7/dd/b7dd0999bf9c775e4550a46406ca6c8fca3a1d7c8daf956630a3b579617e584d.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":49591,"postNumber":8,"raw":"确实更偏向奇幻，尤其从第三部开始","cooked":"

确实更偏向奇幻，尤其从第三部开始

\n","createdAt":"2025-04-21 05:45:43.930192","updatedAt":"2025-04-21 05:45:43.930192","replyToPostNumber":3,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":1,"wordCount":16,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"❤️","count":1,"users":[{"id":7723,"username":"Narrenshiff","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":5351,"username":"Xrystal-line","name":"羽流弦ノ迹","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/72/98/7298d3ea7916b6c479dd74ed59ccee4a89ee2837db7815cc98da181331487296.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":"

\nCrystal Clear

","signatureCooked":"

\nCrystal Clear

"}},{"id":49746,"postNumber":9,"raw":"银河界区系列里面我觉得《天渊》是最好看的。另外两部我个人感觉有意思，但是不够惊艳。初中看过海伯利安，直接看了第二部，很难说当时看懂了多少，不过风格确实是独树一帜的。\n\n科幻小说的种类确实太多了。私以为阿瑟克拉克和凡尔纳写过同一类型的作品，即，都是一种中规中矩的，在假定出的科技树下，给定各种险境，然后描述事件会如何发展，可以概括为**冒险**类小说。《与拉玛相会》《天堂的喷泉》和《海底两万里》便是如此。不过克拉克也有一些别样的作品，能够给人一点脑洞大开的感觉，比如说《神的九十亿个名字》（特殊的动机）《童年的终结》（足够恢弘的叙事）以及 *space odyssey* （第一次读到对于非物质生命的描写）的后两部作品。\n\n另一类我相当喜欢的小说来自那些本身就拥有较高的学术造诣，在某一方面有着足够深刻的认知的作者。譬如格雷格伊根，一个我非常喜欢的作家，他本身是业余数学家，在他的许多作品中，如《数学陷落》、*permutation city*、《三进数世界》会极富创造性的把数学融入到故事中去。目前他的小说中有中译本的我基本都读完了，前不久试图阅读他的正交宇宙三部曲的英文原版，不过很快就搁置了，毕竟还有其他作家的作品。类似的作家还有尼尔斯蒂芬森，本身是物理专业的。他的《雪崩》的人物形象塑造相当有意思，主角阿宏作为一个熟练使用武士刀的黑人 hacker 还是非常独特的。弗诺文奇—— 本身就是数学家和计算机专家，强烈推荐他的《真名实姓》和《彩虹尽头》。彼得沃茨——生物学家，他的《盲视》和《模仿》也是我相当喜欢的作品，能够让人重新审视所谓的*意识*。这些全都可以归属在硬科幻的范畴里。\n\n科幻应该分成硬科幻，和不足以称之为硬科幻的作品。几乎不会有人说，刻意的让某个作品成为软科幻以达到某种硬科幻所无法实现的效果。不过，无论如何，一个作品，只有有了好的故事，才能称为好的科幻。《银河帝国》关于地球的那几部，读起来就和侦探小说差不多，科幻点子完全比不上《神们自己》，不过依然很有趣就是了。\n\n还有一类作家，比如说莱姆，就让我有些难受了。《索拉里斯星》和《其主之声》，都挺有名的吧，但是读起来就是让人感到冗长，就好比一直在铺垫渲染，然而最后一个理论和解释也没给出来。属于雷声大雨点小。思想性是有的，不过令人读起来相当不痛快就是了。\n\n那些让人读的酣畅淋漓的作品，总是那些谋篇布局像规划一盘大棋一样，运筹帷幄。能在最后的时刻来临之时，让每一个伏笔都能前后相接。就算开头再令人困惑，读罢也能恍然大悟。","cooked":"

银河界区系列里面我觉得《天渊》是最好看的。另外两部我个人感觉有意思，但是不够惊艳。初中看过海伯利安，直接看了第二部，很难说当时看懂了多少，不过风格确实是独树一帜的。

科幻小说的种类确实太多了。私以为阿瑟克拉克和凡尔纳写过同一类型的作品，即，都是一种中规中矩的，在假定出的科技树下，给定各种险境，然后描述事件会如何发展，可以概括为冒险类小说。《与拉玛相会》《天堂的喷泉》和《海底两万里》便是如此。不过克拉克也有一些别样的作品，能够给人一点脑洞大开的感觉，比如说《神的九十亿个名字》（特殊的动机）《童年的终结》（足够恢弘的叙事）以及 space odyssey （第一次读到对于非物质生命的描写）的后两部作品。

另一类我相当喜欢的小说来自那些本身就拥有较高的学术造诣，在某一方面有着足够深刻的认知的作者。譬如格雷格伊根，一个我非常喜欢的作家，他本身是业余数学家，在他的许多作品中，如《数学陷落》、permutation city、《三进数世界》会极富创造性的把数学融入到故事中去。目前他的小说中有中译本的我基本都读完了，前不久试图阅读他的正交宇宙三部曲的英文原版，不过很快就搁置了，毕竟还有其他作家的作品。类似的作家还有尼尔斯蒂芬森，本身是物理专业的。他的《雪崩》的人物形象塑造相当有意思，主角阿宏作为一个熟练使用武士刀的黑人 hacker 还是非常独特的。弗诺文奇—— 本身就是数学家和计算机专家，强烈推荐他的《真名实姓》和《彩虹尽头》。彼得沃茨——生物学家，他的《盲视》和《模仿》也是我相当喜欢的作品，能够让人重新审视所谓的意识。这些全都可以归属在硬科幻的范畴里。

科幻应该分成硬科幻，和不足以称之为硬科幻的作品。几乎不会有人说，刻意的让某个作品成为软科幻以达到某种硬科幻所无法实现的效果。不过，无论如何，一个作品，只有有了好的故事，才能称为好的科幻。《银河帝国》关于地球的那几部，读起来就和侦探小说差不多，科幻点子完全比不上《神们自己》，不过依然很有趣就是了。

还有一类作家，比如说莱姆，就让我有些难受了。《索拉里斯星》和《其主之声》，都挺有名的吧，但是读起来就是让人感到冗长，就好比一直在铺垫渲染，然而最后一个理论和解释也没给出来。属于雷声大雨点小。思想性是有的，不过令人读起来相当不痛快就是了。

那些让人读的酣畅淋漓的作品，总是那些谋篇布局像规划一盘大棋一样，运筹帷幄。能在最后的时刻来临之时，让每一个伏笔都能前后相接。就算开头再令人困惑，读罢也能恍然大悟。

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科幻=奇幻 + 哲学

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读《北京折叠》最有代入感的一集应当是在北京晚高峰的地铁上 $\":mouse_hole:\"$

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此人不语，只是一味地在门里生产废料。

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